Small Block Fords 

"Snuze: Needs another Swede" (markg) 12/11/2015 at 08:42 • Filed to: None

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Does anyone here have knowledge on Small Block Ford V8s? A friend and I got talking yesterday about doing a V8 Miata, and I know most people swap SBFs because they have a shorter deck height than SBCs or LSs, making them more compact and easier to fit.

Beyond that I know nothing about them. So knowledgeable Oppos, school me. What’s good, what’s bad, what do you look for in sourcing one?

iSureWilll > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 08:46

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I don’t know much but the SBF’s have the distributor in front instead of the back (SBC’s have them in the rear of the engine) which makes for easy adjustments.

Wacko > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 08:46

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more expensive to work with, heaver, and takes more space

DoYouEvenShift > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 08:47

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Just do an LS. They take many desing cues from SBFs. For example, when people swap LS into Mustangs, they use Ford headers with LS flanges welded on.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > iSureWilll 12/11/2015 at 08:50

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Yeah, I did know that. I have a few bits of random knowledge about SBFs, but I would have no idea what to look for buying one or picking one out of a junkyard.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Wacko 12/11/2015 at 08:52

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Makes sense that they would be heavier than, say an LS motor, and I know they are slightly more expensive than a traditional SBC. But how do you figure they take more space? They had a much shorter deck height than an LS or SBC, so they should be more compact.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > DoYouEvenShift 12/11/2015 at 08:54

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Is an LS doable in an NA Miata though? My understanding was most people did SBF’s because they were a lot more compact and you didn’t have to cut as much stuff up to make them fit.

Aaron M - MasoFiST > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 08:57

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Don’t know much, but what people looking for cheap hi-po builds do is get a later engine from a Ford Explorer (1998-2001) which had GT-40 heads. Best base to start with, as well as relatively easy to find in junkyards.

Monster Miata is probably the best known brand for 302 fitment kits.

Needmoargarage > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 08:57

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I’ve seen both in person. I believe there is far more aftermarket support for LS1 swaps in Miatas. Check out Tom’s Turbo Garage on youtube. Should give you some ideas.

Wacko > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 09:00

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I was lead to believe that SBF take up more space than a SBC, But have no facts or numbers to back that up.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Aaron M - MasoFiST 12/11/2015 at 09:05

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Ok, I’ll have to take a look at Monster Miata then. And good call on the Ford Explorer. I wonder how hard those are to find...

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Wacko 12/11/2015 at 09:06

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Are you thinking of the newer Ford Mod motors (4.6/5.0/5.4)? They are DOHC and are positively enormous compared to any of the old pushrod V8s.

Party-vi > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 09:07

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Yes they are the worst and parts are expensive and the ghost of Henry Ford will visit you on occasion to loosen the thermostat housing bolts on your intake manifold.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Needmoargarage 12/11/2015 at 09:07

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Well I’m more of a Chevy guy anyways, so I’d prefer to do an LS. I was just always led to believe its very difficult to get one stuffed in an LS. I’ll have to look at Tom’s.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Party-vi 12/11/2015 at 09:08

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Hahaha, good to know. Sounds like, based on this and other comments, I should go back to looking at LS motors.

Party-vi > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 09:09

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SBFs are just a different flavor. Honestly I think the ubiquity of LS engines and swaps would make it easier on you.

Sweet Trav > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 09:16

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The only real advantage of the SBF is the distributor being in the front, the blocks are also inherrently weaker, and they only come in 2 bolt mains from the factory.

The advantage is that the fuel injection system on an SBF is better than anything offered on a GEN 1 small block chevy.

My advice would be to go with an Aluminum LS motor as you will save weight and try to preserve some semblence of handling. and the Intake manifold on the LS motor will be lower profile than anything ford offered as far as height goes.

Here is a quick list of external dimensions for engines.

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2013/01/10/eng…

Aaron M - MasoFiST > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 09:17

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Availability is the biggest practical difference between the LS and the SBF, 2001 was the last year I know of before they switched over to Mod motor completely. If you give up on finding parts, Flyin Miata has you covered for an LS swap: https://www.flyinmiata.com/V8/costsNB.php

vondon302 > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 09:17

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The modern overhead cam 5.0 is huge. Old 5.0 cam in block motors are about the same size except for the distributor as you already know. You can make decent power with these but an ls motor is always gonna be cheaper dollar per hp. There is a reason most fox body drag racers run chevy. If your starting fresh I’d go chevy and I’m a ford fan. On the other hand if you can get a block real cheap why not be different. I’ve got an old windsor 351 I’d love to punch out to 427 and drop it in there but that’s a tall deck block compared to a 302. So that might be a problem and doing something nobody else is doing is always gonna be harder.

they-will-know-my-velocity > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 09:20

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The 4.6 V8 comes in a few flavors. The 3v is the most recent version. The 5.4 and the 4.6 are the same engine essentially but the 5.4 has a taller deck height and longer stroke. Usually used in trucks but a few guys have put them in Mustangs.

The Panther body, Mustang, SUVs, trucks, all that came with a V8 option use either the 4.6L or the 5.4L.

The 4.6L 2 valve was in the SN95 and New Edge Mustangs. As well as the Thunderbird of the 90’s. Also the Lincoln town car, where it debuted in ‘91. And a handful of other Ford products. The engine could be detuned to be very sedate.

16 valve SOHC V8. Varying outputs from under 200 up to 260.

The 4.6L 3v has variable camshaft timing and......24 valves. Came with Charge Motion Control Valve plates from the intake which can be deleted for a little bit extra oomph. This motor is very tunable, gets decent mileage for a 281 CI V8 and with some boltons, can make a reliable 350hp. With a supercharger or a turbo and a little lovin’, 400-600 HP is possible but you should start worrying about building the engine anywhere north of 450 or so.

Sounds like a beast too. With headers and cams, this motor is loud as hell. I’ve owned 2 and they were dead reliable. Never had to fix a thing on them with over 120,000 miles logged and 5 years between the 2 Mustangs. Parts for the 3v are VERY plentiful. You can find anything you need from either Ford Racing, Late Model Restoration, or American Muscle. Or a dozen others.

They made a 4 Valve DOHC 4.6L but I know nothing about it except it was in the Cobra from 96-01.

1 note, I would avoid the 5r55 auto 5 speed that Ford bolted to the 4.6L. It’s a dumb brick that will break. I’ve killed 3. Just get a manual. Ford has used the T56 and the TR6060 manual 6 speeds and it should be hard to find parts.

This being said, I love my LS1 more.

Needmoargarage > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 09:28

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Depending on what you want to spend they make kits that make swapping it a breeze. I like Ford engine swaps because of the uniqueness and how good they sound, but an LS is hard to argue with. Either way it’s pretty cool!

Needmoargarage > Party-vi 12/11/2015 at 09:30

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I was looking for a logical explanation why the nuts on my Mustang’s exhaust manifolds mysteriously backed off and gave me a straight exhaust the other day. Makes perfect sense now.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Sweet Trav 12/11/2015 at 09:42

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Thank you so much, that’s the kind of info I was looking for. I just book marked the site with the engine dimensions. Perfect.

DoYouEvenShift > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 09:53

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If you google ls dimensions and 302 dimensions. Overall theyre within 1 inch of each other. The LS will be shorter vertically because of the intake. And it seems the front accesories are shorter as well.

Speed > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 10:11

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Although I am a big fan of the SBF, I moved to the LSX camp for good reason and believe an LS swap would be the route to take in a car like a Miata.

1) Expense: If you want big, reliable power the LS engines are the way to go. When it comes to iron blocks, Ford and GM engines are about the same at the wrecking yard, but you don’t want iron. You want aluminumum and aluminum Ford stuff gets pricier. On top of that you’d have to build a Ford up a little just to equal a stone stock LS.

2) Weight: speaking of aluminum, my second point is very important in a Miata. If you drop in an aluminum LS engine, you’re going to save a ton of weight over the front axle vs. an iron Ford. All of those junkyard 5.0s will have iron heads as well. Even if you went with an iron LS (5.3 or 6.0 truck mill) you get aluminum heads. Avoid the early truck motors with iron heads because there’s no reason to go that route.

3) Reliability: Small block Fords are very reliable, but.. Say you want 400rwhp. With an LS1 that’s a cam swap. On a SBF? That’s a built motor. My point here is that at every level you have to tear into the Ford more to compete and that’s when you sacrifice reliability. Also, 5.0 blocks aren’t good for much over 400rwhp.

4) Community: I’m not going to down talk the Ford community and it’s online presence in forums like Corral, because they are an invaluable wealth of knowlege. The LS motors have it too! I’ve been on LS1tech.com for about 10 years and guarantee you EVERYTHING you need is right there in the forums. If it isn’t, just ask. In fact go join right now and start looking. The wonderful thing about the LSX community is that it’s current, it’s trending, it’s popular. New products and builds are coming daily. While the SBF has one of the biggest aftermarkets of all time, it’s a bit of a has been compared to the new stuff. Time marches on.

Here’s a link of threads on LS1tech.com tagged with Miata. Most are swap/build threads! Check it out.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/tags/mi…

Sweet Trav > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/11/2015 at 10:30

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no problem, also if you are looking to build big power and want to stick with a ford, get an aftermarket dart block as the thin wall castings from 85-95 with more than 400 ish HP are prone to cracking.